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QuicksilverBMX

Is this a Kuwahara?

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Some say it is, Some say it isnt. I have no idea. The stickers seem to be original-they are old. The serial number has been ground off in a past life. Can someone tell me if this is a Kuwahara cruiser? I tried to downsize the pics but I just got vista and I'm still learning how to drive it.

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Well those look like Kuwie dropouts for sure, but I can't recall Kuwies havin that little Redline style gusset.

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Quick,

 

I think your bike is a Kuwahara, but I'd like to hear from others that know more about it.

I am in communication with a Canadian Team Kuwahara rider and I have directed him to both this thread and the on V. Although I did not buy my Kuwahara Cruiser NOS from a bike shop with a warranty tag. I did buy 2 similar frames from x-Kuwahara Team riders as told to me.

I have no conclusive evidence either way. If you look at this picture of a later Kuwahara 20" and the 1986-87 Kuwahara Magician they also had the Redline gusset support. The top tube is actually more straight as well compared to the USA 5" head tube version. Although I have obvious incentives to believe that this is Genuine Kuwahara, the facts have eluded me for years and I just opted to enjoy it and own it as it is. I do know that the truth will probably come from a Factory Kuwahara Rider from outside the USA, maybe Australia, possibly Canada.

 

Hey Quick did you ever talk to Australian Kuwahara Importers?

 

Here are a few pics to see the later Kuwahara gusset supports in various models.

 

kuwachamprs.jpg

Kuwahara Champ Pro

 

exhibisionist.jpg

Kuwahara Exhibisionist '87

 

magician.jpg

'87 Kuwahara Magician

 

kuwahara_pursur.jpg

2006 Pursur (Kuwaharas design in Gusset Reinforcement)

 

As you can see Kuwahara and gusset supports have evolved therefore

the answer to our question is "when did Kuwahara implement this design"

and :lol: "Are they Kuwaharas?"

 

Anyone that has data on this please drop science,

 

21

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Thanks for the extra info 21. I havent spoke to the impoters yet but I thought I would try my luck here as there as a very big vintage bike show here in 4 weeks and I was going to tip a fair bit of cash into it to get it ready for the show. I dont really want to restore somethjing until I know for sure what it is.

 

Cheers

Reece

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Reece, :OSThumbsUpPeace[1]:

 

I can understand your situation and time constraint. I'd build it up because we're close.

 

As a few companies used similar frame designs it is not to say that it is not a Kuwahara original design. Fact aside from assumption, we need dead evidence such as, but not limited to a Factory Kuwahara advertisement, brochure or first hand knowledge would be appreciated to know for sure that it is. To know that it is not then we also need some material evidence.

 

I feel like we are solving a cold case eh Reece? :lol:

 

 

Does anyone have this informaton? Please help us out?...

 

Just like skewed anthropology you can set out to prove your own theory, right? I am obviously prejudice on the matter and will offer up a $25.00 Paypal gift/credit to anyone that can offer us conclusive proof that it is a Kuwahara Cruiser with out doubt.

 

Go dust off your '82-84 Kuwahara Catalogs please! Especially Intl. catalogs!!!!

:NoBS:

 

 

 

:thanks:

21

 

 

 

ps. Andy here is a pic of the Apollo Cruiser, it stayed very true to it's cycling style butted tubes and signature drop outs, but your other pics deepen the mystery... :huh2:

Apollocuzr.jpg

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because of the age of your frameset, i am going to say no. kuwahara were making a frameset that was not unlike the 83/84 kz frameset but in cruiser model. Nowhere do you see a kuwi cruiser with that frameset, but a few kuwi copies had that stubby dropout in the kuwi/tange style, but it's all wrong for a kuwi cruiser. having said that, it seems that a few guys have the sane frameset in the same style with the same stickers. I would not buy it as a kuwi, but it seems to be widely available as one. i suspect re-stickering, but it's nothing like the one and only true cruiser that was available from kuwahara. You will have to make your own decision, but the promotional kuwi stuff tells you what you need to know and wishfull thinking won't change what you have. Sorry, but it looks nothing like a true kuwi cruiser. I have never seen one like that, and never seen an advert with that one. i hope it is, but i wouldn't bank on it.

 

jt

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Townshend,

 

"i suspect re-stickering, but it's nothing like the one and only true cruiser that was available from kuwahara." Quote

 

 

Right, :blink:

 

I am not picking your comment apart but I am thinking that there may have been two true Kuwahara cruisers... One built for the USA market and one for the East Asian and Canadian market. I bought both bikes already stickered and I have seen a third NOS in the box in Australia. The USA version has a 5" Headtube and no gusset support and has a serial number T3 (Tange '83). The Overseas or Mystery model has serial number T2 (Tange '82). Mine are T2E and T2D.

 

I know this is strange but keep in mind that we are on the verge of discovering the truth about a very important frame to me and Reece and possibly others. I can assume that it is a Kuwahara because I paid a shit load for it and it was already stickered, advertised as Factory Kuwahara Cruiser and that I have seen one NOS in box. I bought it knowing that the USA 5" ht model existed. Maybe Kuwahara built Flanged first and then latter replaced with the 5" HT and Fat/Floval KZ-83 Tubing only???

 

As far as keeping an open mind until we know for sure, I promise that I will be objective in my research, but that I do suffer from a pre-concieved disposition to prove it true. I will not hide any evidence. I bought a Cycle Pro cruiser from Darren C. just to study it compared to this one. There are notable differences. I also remember bitd ummm 2003-4, there was debate that there were or wasn't 2 laserlite frames one having a flatter tube. We now know the KZ-83 and 84 have these differences....

 

I am not claiming to have seen the Loch Ness Monster, I am claiming to own two (2) Loch Ness Monsters in my Garage, right now... :lol: I LOVE BMX, so let's see some fargin' facts!

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yeah, but i can see no flyer or anything on it, and you can on all other kuwi framesets. Nobody has ever seen proof of the exsistance of this cruiser, just 2 or 3 framesets like that one. I hope it is, but i still would not count on it being one. i have the early 82-83 kz frameset with oval tubing. it was a euro model. But the era of those stickers/decals was the same as the kuwi cruiser/laserlite/nova/survivor we all know and love.

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There is a small sticker on my one - saying Cro-Mo.

 

Serial number does indeed look tange - Kuwahara is the fisrt thing I thought when I saw it.

However, down here these frames were marketed as a complete bike called a Black Max.

It had good qaulity Jap components from the Shimano camp ie. Kashimax Aero, 7X rims, Takagi cranks etc.

 

I am sure it's a generic Tange 24" frame, built and stickered accordingly in each market.

 

Actual Kuwi crusier frames are bigger, don't have the gusset and have different rear dropouts (like the Laserlite/KZ1 etc).

 

Here is a pic of a Black Max complete.

 

 

BlackMax.jpg

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Sorry to be so lenghty guys...

 

I posted same questions in 2003, 2005 and here I am 2007 with no conclusive proof either way. I asked Jayson who raced on the Kuwahara Cananda Factory Race Team to visit this thread and join our community. I am hoping that with a proliferation of new data and sources we can begin to answer some questions lost in the sands of OS-BMX Time.

 

Until then I'm going to McDonald's :40: ...

Peace,

21

 

ps. The reward is very available to anyone with conclusive proof of my Hypothesis $25.00

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Andy,

 

Didn't Australian Companies recieve licensing to produce Redlines as well, similar to the MX-II and III? I remember seeing knock off Torkers and Mongooses as well? I know of the Black Max it does look dead on. I can't see the rear drops very well.

 

My kz-83 Laserlite has the same drops as the mystery cruiser...

 

I'll be back gotta go get some McDees!

 

 

Hopefully it is, if not then it isn't and I own the world's most expensive Cycle Pros. :CashMoney: Ha ha... :lol: + :teary: = :fart:

 

21

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Hi guys...

Just thought I'd throw this in the mix -a pic of my '84 Kuwie cruiser....serial # K4Fxxxxx, 5" headtube, stamped Kuwahara on seat post tube, etc... I've added some Flights and some other goodies since I originally rebuilt it a few months back and I'll "post it up for real" in the near future when I take some decent pictures! :)

 

As far as the argument whether or not the cruiser in question is a real Kuwie or not, all I have to say is good luck with your hunt for the truth boys....I'm pretty sure Kuwahara didn't offer that particular cruiser frame in the U.S....but I'm definitely no expert here...

I will add that I raced on the same tracks up here in Washington State in the early 80's with four Factory Kuwahara riders -Gary Ellis, Troy Daniels, and Curt and Brian Gardner. All of them raced cruiser at some point while doing their stints w/ Kuwahara in '82-'84 (yes, even Gary raced cruiser for a little while in '84...), and all of them rode cruisers w/ the 5" headtube...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I'm far from a Kuwahara expert, but I do know for sure after dealing with Howie Cohen for years that the factory was putting out bikes for several different labels. I have a frame that with the exception of a small single guesset by the headtube, it is identical to a Laserlite. Same tubing, dropouts etc. Think of Kuwahara as the Japanese Bill Bastian.

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Reiley,

 

Post pics when you get a moment, that frame sounds interesting What serial #? Every picture I have seen compliments what everyone is saying. There is No arguement from me at all. It is an exploration in something odd, unique and more possible than impossible.

 

Kuwahara and especially Tange being the Asian Bill Bastian is true. Kuwahara built frames and bikes for many, many labels the more populare being Schwinn and Nishiki. Both Tange and Koizumi Factoies built everything from DB, Hutch, Redline and many more.

 

*I got some sweet Monopoly game pieces anyone wanna trade?

 

Peace,

 

Mike

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We will have an answer next Tuedsay. The Kuwahara importer rep from the early 80's will be id'ing the frame and he will tell me exactly what it is.

 

I think I said our frames are serialed as T-1982 or '83? I'm 99% sure he will tell you that it is a 100% Kuwahara cruiser. :lol:

 

 

 

Peace,

 

21

 

Mike

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I'm not convinced - it may be a Tange-made 24" frame with Kuwi decals but not a 'proper' Kuwi (like Ryans').
:whistling:

 

 

Andy,

I as Quicksilver have done foot work on the subject. It would be helpful if you knew any Australian Kuwahara Team members from this serial year to assist in data. The Canadian Kuwahara racer was sponsored through a Bike Shop and rode a JMC cruiser with Kuwahara stickers! So perhaps Canada Factory riders could assist as well?

 

But like I said I have been studying this cruiser style for 4 years and I know that the bullshit knock offs, even the cycle pros are not welded as nice or weigh the same. The shared geometry and technology between Kuwahara, Redline, Suntour and Tange is known but to what degree has never been disclosed. It is a Kuwahara, I'm convinced.

 

 

21

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it seems strange that kuwahara allways had the same bike for sale the world over, only the earliest laserlites were slightly different in europe(oval tubing and arx forks instead of trx) but it wasn't different. No kuwahara was ever different, just the build spec. F+F were consistant. I still say it is not a kuwahara cruiser. The ad for a kuwahara cruiser has the known kuwahara cruiser on it. Japan is far closer to australia than the UK, so it's not like it's too far flung a place to get a normal kuwi sent over, and normal laserlites seemed to get there looking normal as did every other kuwahara bike. Maybe these ar just re-stickered by bike shops, or by a collector many years ago. maybe zapper can shed light on the canadian ones :whistling: but i would never buy one as a kuwi because they look nothing like a kuwi. There are only a couple around where as there are many confirmed normal kuwi cruisers to be seen. Wanting it to be is one thing, but i still think theres about a 0.000001% chance that it is.

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