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ronoc101

WTF! Ok Now Im Over It....done With The JADs....

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They aren't repops but they definitely aren't originals. Of course everyone who has one will hate any thoughts of a newly built one for many reasons. The exclusivity, value and brand value are all seriously in jeopardy. I agree, that it is extremely lame if this person starts making Jads and not differentiating them somehow from the old ones. Its also even worse if new ones are not made well and then sold further driving the brand into the ground.

 

There are some things to think about though. When Cycle Craft was sold to Shag it was still considered a Cycle Craft. If Shag brought back Cycle Craft it would still be Cycle Craft. Its unfortunate that in this case person who bought Jad is not believed to be on the same level as the original owner. That is the problem here guys. He didn't just buy the inventory he bought what was left of the company and all rights to do what ever he wants.

 

Nbl 49a

Edited by Nbl 49a

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It's interesting how people look at this issue.

 

See to me, Honda1wheel, you say you like Jads and now can have one... I just think that if you buy one of these recently fab'd frames... you still don't own a Jad. You bought something else. It resembles a JAD, but it ain't a Jad.

 

I guess you maybe do agree with that after all, based on the last sentence above, so what exactly is your point? :lol:

 

I disagree...if this bike was built to exact specs and all the welding is done correctly, there's no doubt in my mind that it is a JAD...Mike Jad made that tubing back in the day and just didn't weld it together...so because he didn't weld it it's not "real" sorry, but that's the craziest thing I've heard in a while...I see where you're coming from with your re-pop decals, etc. But this is not repoped tubing....it's OS tubing that was welded together...

 

Let's say someones seatpost tube got cracked on a old school PK, which happened a lot...If there was OS SE tubing around and you used it to repair your Ripper, would that make it any less real? I think that would be like using true NOS parts to restore a classic car, it would be the same thing...Next thing ya know a 1970 Plymouth Superbird without the original tires isn't going to be "real" because the tires aren't original...I understand that in the car collecting industry, survivor cars are worth the most money, but you're not gonna hear anyone saying that by replacing a rusted out pannel that the car isn't real anymore....but now I'm ranting...back to bikes...

 

If it was not original JAD tubing, I could see your point...it would clearly be a repoped or retro bike, but this is true OS tubing that was never assembled, so how is this not real???

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Yes, now the Ripper is "repaired", which is another status. I think i boils down to two types of collectors personally. Those who are Purists and want OG stuff from the era or year it was produced or those who will accept anything as collectible. To each his own but I'll take mine OG thanks.

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Yes, now the Ripper is "repaired", which is another status. I think i boils down to two types of collectors personally. Those who are Purists and want OG stuff from the era or year it was produced or those who will accept anything as collectible. To each his own but I'll take mine OG thanks.

 

Ok, then lets just start tossing all the Nomura's, PK's, JAD's, CW's, whatever bikes that may have had a dented tube or a cracked seatpost in the trash... :deadhorse: I ride my bikes, no matter how much they cost, so it wouldn't bother me if they were "repaired" as long as they were done right...Even better if they got repaired with original tubing...There's a reason why Rod Miles is in business...I have more respect for someone that will save a bike or in this case tubing from the trash heap, instead of searching for years for something that will sit on carpet until it's value increases...

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I don't have an issue with repaired bikes either, in fact I have a frame and a fork that need addressed. The Jad issue and repair issues are not even related. The JAD issue involves a bike that has not been made for over 10 years that is suddenly being rebuilt again and being passed off as OG (which the debate is about).

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i know its kinda off the subject but there are some guys that just started make 67 68 69 camaros brand new everything just like it came from the factory all it does is make the true ones worth more but lets the people that cant afford 60,000 for a old one now they can for 30,000 i see everyones point here but i think they should also be marked some kind of way with serial numbers to show what year they were made but they are prototypes but as long as he makes them odd ball than it should be cool. i dont really have anything else to say about this im all out of words tell next time lololololololololol

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I don't see that there is any relation with your repair scenario to what we are talking about here, Mike. Somebody is making new frames, not doing repairs on old Jads, right?

 

A repaired bike is a repaired bike. Yes it is nice to save a bike that is in need of saving... I don't think anyone has suggested otherwise.

 

As far as the other issue...

 

I disagree...if this bike was built to exact specs and all the welding is done correctly, there's no doubt in my mind that it is a JAD...Mike Jad made that tubing back in the day and just didn't weld it together...so because he didn't weld it it's not "real" sorry, but that's the craziest thing I've heard in a while...I

 

 

So, Mike Jad "made tubing"? That would be unusual if so. Most mfg's order tubing from a steel wholesaler.

 

But anyway... let's say that the new guy, as supposed, bought the name and dead stock fair and square. He is entitled to make bikes and call them Jad. I have no problem with that, it is after all his legal right.

 

On the other hand... IF he makes exact copies of the old JAD equipment, but does not differentiate in any clear way that the new stuff IS NOT the older 1st era JAD stuff that people are after for the collectible quality then I think that is wrong. He is being forthcoming about the fact that he made them new... that is commendable, but unless the new frames and parts are indelibly marked... what's to keep a second hand buyer from being burned, thinking they are getting an original. I think they are not the JAD that the majority of collectors seek... they are merely a scale model. You are basically saying the Jad from 96 and the "Nu-Jad" from 2007 are equal, it seems. That is a remarkable assertion.

 

Why are you interested in old school bmx, Mike? Not trying to put you on the spot... I'm trying to help you understand why so many of us here on this site think reproductions are a negative thing. Does your interest in earlier eras of bmx involve an appreciation of the history and respect for the old bikes and the individuals and companies that broke ground and made great products... or is it because you merely like the "style" of the old stuff? Your argument seems to be that if it is an exact copy... then it is the same as the original in terms of quality and desirability in your eyes? If that is your perspective that is fine, but try to understand that most people on this site, and who take issue with unmarked and deceptive reproductions are into the collectibility of the real thing. The fashion and style of the old stuff is not enough. We value the actual old stuff. Copies will not suffice.

 

The carpet queen issue is again irrelevant here. That is another matter.

 

APJune10_07aReduced.jpg

 

Take this bike for instance, reasonably low production numbers, it is a very special frame/Fork/bar combo for many of us because this represents the swan song of one of the greatest old school bmx companies ever. It has nostalgic qualities because it marks the end of an era for many of us. Not to mention that it is the signature model of one of the all time greats. Everything here is original. It is irreplaceable - yes it is notable monetarily, but more importantly... it's irreplaceable for its historical importance - what it represents to old school connoisseurs. YET... I ride the fuck out of this. I'm not abusive or wreckless, but I'm not afraid to scuff those pedal cages either. That's riding.

 

Now... I'm not absurdly careless about it, if I want to shred the skatepark, I'll do so on a new bike. But the point of all this is I don't need reproduction crap on here to ride it.

 

 

I don't know if this is your angle or not, but some guys seem to be so resentful about prices, that they think an inexpensive copy is a good thing. Well, if you only value style, then I guess that is true, but for many of us "style" is only part of the big picture and there are other qualities that are inherent in original bmx equipment that are just not present in the copies. Having the appearance of the genuine item is not enough. It's intangible and I guess you either get it or you don't.

 

So... the AP's like in my photo example came in Chrome and White. Let's say I decide I'd like to acquire a white one so that I have examples of both. If someone had managed to stash some AP tubing and broke it out last week and made up some frames that looked exactly like it, that would not interest me in the least. It has nothing to do with what I'm after. Why? Because the "style" or "AP fashion of frame" is just part of the package. The aesthetics are just the tip of the iceberg... and most of us here who are interested in earlier eras of BMX are interested in more than the mere style.

 

 

Also, just wondering if you are clear about the way we distinguish between retro and a reproduction? Retro is ok in the eyes of most people, myself included.

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On the subject of who welded what with what tubing etc etc etc ....... a bit of trivia

 

Did you know some REDLINES were welded here in Australia? Prolines and Microlines for the Australian market.

 

The OM actually spoke to someone here in OZ about welding PK's here as well. Didn't happen though. FACT

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Wow Steve, excellent post. You summed up a lot of points very succinctly (and with tact, which is the toughest part sometimes)

 

kudos.

:OSThumbsUpPeace[1]:

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If we were talking about coins instead of bikes, it would be called counterfeiting. Would it be ok for a guy to list counterfeit Susan B. Anthony dollars on e-bay for .50c each as long as he was upfront about them being "repros"?

 

Imagine if you had a 1932s penny and it's uber rare, there are only around 3 known to be in existence (I'm making up the year and mint because I'm lazy, I don't really know if a 1932s penny is rare, or if there is even such a thing, but just go with it for a sec..) Now imagine you found one in an old trunk your grandfather passed down, it's worth $250,000 in good condition, much higher if it's mint. Yours is in mint condition for a penny this old.

Suddenly some guy in Racine named Heath, who has looked for a long time for a 1932s finally gives up and makes exact replicas of the 1932s penny and sells them for $50.00 each at his local flea-market.

 

You had not told anyone that you had the 4th penny ever discovered, and were hanging on to it as one of your most prized possessions.

 

What do you think will happen when you walk into your neighborhood coin dealer to have it appraised? You look in his glass case and there are 17 1932s pennies in mint condition for $75 each. They are indistinguishable from yours. You show him your penny and he looks at it with a magnifying glass and then offers you $40.00

 

Heath was impatient and made some so that his collection would look complete, however, he just stole nearly half a million dollars from you.

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***MINE***

 

 

real NOS JAD Sherman

jad_1.jpg

 

real JAD Sherman/JAD freestyle bars/JAD Freestyle Forks

sherman.jpg

 

real JAD 26" one off custom build

jad261.jpg

 

real JAD 24" (ive changed it a bit, took reflectors off, lowered post, crupis, etc...this is the pic from who sold it)

jad24.jpg

 

real JAD 20"

jad20_1.jpg

 

real JAD 20"/JAD forks (stripped for paint)

20jad.jpg

 

look...I ride my bikes...I dont build new ones and claim that i was going to race it at rockford....

conorJAD.jpg

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First off, the penny issue has no relevance because making money is a federal offense, this guy has OS tubing that he put together which is his right because it's his company...

 

S.Brothers,

 

I respect and value your opinion and love the discussion that has occured thus far...

 

My main point is this - I consider the bike legit if it is built to specs because it was the tubing that was made for the bike back in the day...

 

If it was reproduction tubing, then it would be a retro or repoped bike...

 

My real question is..."What on the JADs, if they are built to specs has ever been reproduced?"

 

My answer to that is nothing...nothing was remanufactured or reproduced to make that bike, so I would consider that NOS tubing, not reproduced tubing therefore making it "legit" in my eyes...

 

Now, where I'm coming from and why I'm here on OS - I like many others on here have re-discovered my love for bmx and riding and am trying to get the bikes that I wanted BITD that I couldn't afford when I was a kid...actually, I am still young (23 years old this month) and still can't afford the stuff that I buy, but I buy it any way because that's what I want...I just acquired my personal "holy grail" of bikes that I have been looking to get for sometime now...a Technique Pro XL....did I overpay for it, YES...I paid what it cost for the frame brand new BITD, which some people would call crazy for a used mid-school frame, but it's what I wanted so I spent it and I'd spend it again...I've had the parts to complete the build for several months (technique cranks in annodized red, technique hubs, technique sprocket, red chris king headset, etc.) I have just been waiting on the frame to pop up...now all I need is a seat post, which I will go and order today...and I will ride it, like you ride your JMC and I respect that...I feel the same way that you do, I'm not going to go thrash on it anytime soon, but it will be ridden, not thrown up on a wall, in storage, or spend it's entire life on a carpet - but it will stay inside :ThumbsUp:

 

So no, I am not one of those people that think that prices are out of control and that is why I've been arguing this point...I did not buy my bike to resell it for a profit, the reason I justified buying all that stuff is because I know that it won't be going anywhere for a long time...

 

Here's my theory on pricing...

 

What's fetching the most money now a days? Mid to late 70s and early 80s bikes...The majority of the people buying these bikes are people in their 30s and 40s trying to get the bikes that they had BITD and currently they have the most disposable income....In 10-20 years do I forsee Hutch Aerospeeds still selling for the prices that they do now? Maybe, but I would assume that the people that are 30-40 in 10-20 years will be looking to get their rides from BITD and mid-school stuff will be where the money will be going....I just don't think many 60 year olds will be too interested in spending 2,000 on a pair of aerospeeds to put on their three-wheel bike...

 

So basically, there will be a time when your stuff, my stuff, will all be worth nothing, or a fraction of what we paid for it...so if you're not in it to flip a buck, you shouldn't care how "rare" your bike is...just ride it and enjoy it because that's what you want to ride, not because I can sell it to my buddy for 2,000....Just my humble opinion and I hope you see where I'm comin from.... :cheers:

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real JAD 26" one off custom build

jad261.jpg

 

look...I ride my bikes...I dont build new ones and claim that i was going to race it at rockford....

conorJAD.jpg

 

Conor,

 

I love your bikes, but what makes the 26" a "real" JAD?? It was never a production bike...If I remember reading it right on other sites, this bike was built by someone who worked for JAD back in the day...I would assume they made it by making adjustments to the BB height and leangthening the chainstays and top tube...hmm, seems like the pink one that was on ebay - a custom made JAD made from JAD tubing and welded together that wasnt' the design of Mike...(If I'm wrong and you're telling me that Mike fab'd this bike, let me know).

 

My views in this thread are not to flame anyone, I'm just trying to show you the other side of the fence...I wish that people would contact the guy from ebay and get his perspective instead of flaming him on here...I'm sure he's a JAD lover just like you Conor and bosshog on vintage, the only difference is, he bought the stock and you didn't...But my view is still the same, if you had all that tubing you'd be welding em up just the same as this guy....

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now dont come off trying to tell me that my one off JAD isnt a real JAD. just because you find it fine that this guy is building these bikes, dont go assuming that mine arent valid. the 26" was a custom order from a guy out of atlanta georgia. he sent mike JAD the geometry that he wanted and YES, Mike DID fab this bike up...he told me so himself...

 

the only thig that makes this guys JADs JAD are that he owns the name and the steel. who knows if he has the jigs. obviously he is a machinist. he built those awsome cable guides for the red JAD from rockford.

 

I really dont have anything against this guy except the fact that hes making the JAD frames that have already been made and calling them old school and the same names...THEY ARE NOT THE SAME...

 

Actually, i think that the pit bike is fuckin rad...now thats what he should be doing with the tubing...if he wants to make JADs make JADs, but make up something new...take it to the next level like Mike JAD did. dont tarnish the name or designs by making the same thing, but different....call it the "SHERMANATOR" or somthing stupid like that....its NOT a Sherman...except that he says so...

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Thanks for setting me straight on the origin of the 26"...I thought that I read previously that one of the workers for JAD fab'd it himself, but obviously I was wrong...I was not saying that your 26" was not a true JAD, I was just trying to get you to look at it from a complete outsiders perspective (which is what I'm trying to do since I don't have any JAD bikes) to just keep the conversation going...what makes it a true JAD, the person who welds it, the time that it's built, the tubing that's used, etc. etc...I'd love to hear your opinion on it...It was just my opinion that the stuff was already fab'd, just not welded together...

 

Just trying to nail down why you guys aren't accepting the frames as true JADs...So what makes it non JAD besides the fact that he changed the geometry of the frame? The fact that it wasn't welded in the mid 90s??

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:deadhorse:

 

 

I don't have anything to say about Jad's. I just like these lil' yellow fellas whackin' away at this horse. I wish they were smiling though...

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When he runs out of tubing and starts using other tubing, is it still an OG Jad? How would one know that he switched unless he specifies?

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PRECISELY...to me...not built in the 90s or by Mike JAD and crew. NOT a real JAD. Legally and technically (tubing, name rights, etc...) they are JAD bikes. But not in my eyes.

 

Like i said before, i have no beef with him building up cool projects like the pitbike, or anything else that he thinks is cool. But why go and remake a frame and call it "old school" and a Sherman in the auction, when its not really a Sherman? A Sherman copy...YES...a Sherman...NO. I DO appreciate the fact that he is very upfront telling his story about how he bought the company name and rights, and that he remade the frame and what he changed about it...but its still not a JAD Sherman.

 

I would though, love to get my hands on a nu-JAD pitbike, just to ride around...his bar design is really cool and JADesque too.

 

Im not bustin on the guy sayin that he sucks, or that he has no legal rights to do what hes doing. He has the rights to do anything the hell he wants, and what i say has no meaning...but this is just the way i feel about him remaking JAD frames that have already been made...I mean, he is a machinist right? How hard would it be to remake those JAD stems in a CNC??? Or cranks for that matter...

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This thread has been discussed 100 times over and over again in different scenario's in the 8 years I've been here and collecting.

No one will ever agree, they never do and that's all right.

Some people get it.....and then there's the others.

 

;-)

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I completely agree with your last posts Conor and Spur...I just wanted to see where you guys are drawing the line in the sand...When he runs out of OS tubing and starts making his own then I'd say that those are clearly retro or repro'd bikes and there needs to be some kind of stamping...and I could see where you guys would want these "new OS JADs" to be stamped too, which is what I said in my first post...so we've just been going around and around...but at least we know where everyone stands...

 

Basically all new bikes, even if they have OS tubing need to be serialed in a way to distinguish them from OG JADs, and then if and when he makes new tubing those should be serialed in a even different way (IMO) to distinguish them as a completely different from the newly assembled JADs with OS tubing...

 

And I hear that Redman is planning on re-releasing Technique components and possibly in the future may re-release the monocoque style frames...am I upset about it? Not really, I'd prolly buy a set of cranks in each color and a few frames and be able to thrash around on them, not worrying about breaking them...

 

To be continued..... :HitsFan:

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I think if you did a poll, you'd find it's the younger crowd that doesn't mind repro'ing of bikes and hardgoods.

 

It's not real to them because it doesn't affect them personally.

 

Just like when I was younger I didn't care about balding or prostate cancer.. now it's something that crosses my mind from time to time.

 

"Just get out and ride your carpet queens" blah..blah..

 

Try telling that to the guy with the Mustang Shelby with 207 miles on it. "Get out and take it cross country old man, what good is a hot-rod if you don't smoke the tires?"

 

The "2 fast 2 furious" crowd won't understand because they can always go out and buy new tires for their Mazda

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after a long day of werk in a foreign place i got a chance to log in and check out this thread.

 

nothing against you personally mike, but to everyone that has the same view...

 

astro's analogy on historic coins does have relevance.

 

The fact that it wasn't welded in the mid 90s??

 

 

YES. thats the difference, plain and simple. whomever buys the name and stock CAN do wut they want... but it'll never be the same thing. the man, the idea, the motivation, the design, the soul, the feel, the meaning, the pride, the product, the legacy and the history.

 

it doesnt really have anything to do with stock that was drawn to specs back then. when it died, it was over... thats wut makes it special. i know that mike jad was into this b/c it was in him. he was putting his name on something. THIS GUY BOUGHT MIKE JAD'S NAME. mike jad took a chance and made a venture that can never be recreated w/ some welds by someone that is throwing stuff on ebay for $400 to $600 a pop.

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I would also agree here. It IS NOT THE SAME IF IT IS WELDED TOGETHER LAST WEEK! The whole point is that it was made back it the day. Otherwise its just outdated technology. Mike love ya bro but you were really missing the boat on this.

 

Astro,

 

I am assuimng you are talking about kids of today and not just people from the Mid School era. With that said-the reason why it doesn't affect younger people is that they have no connection to it. Honestly they have no reason to unless on the rare occasions when there was better technology that got lost for whatever reason. The only reason older stuff means something to us is that we were there. We saw the innovations as they were happening. The new parts in the magazines, at the shop and at the track. The same reason that I have a connection to later old school parts and also earlier Mid School parts-because I was there. I don't have the same connection to later Mid School parts and never will. The only reason I bought my Technique is it is one of the prettiest bikes I have ever seen. However it doesn't have any sentimental value to me because I wasn't around when it was relased.

 

Nbl 49a

Edited by Nbl 49a

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I don't have a problem with anybody's views and am not taking this personally, I was just stirring the pot...I was around when JAD was released and I understand "what it's all about" but if Mike Jad sold off all of his old stock and even his tubing, don't you think that he knew this was going to happen? Aparently Jason knew it was going to happen before the company was sold :Praise:

 

Conor,

 

You have Mike Jad's contact info right? Ask him how he feels about the situation...I think that if he was worried about the JAD legacy being destroyed he would have destroyed all the tubing and just sold the guy the name and all the spare parts he had left...

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