mongoosedrummer Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 I'm just curious what others think... When I think of BMX mag wheels, it always brings a little joy to my soul. Why? For one thing, BMX mags were one of the first true/realistic production BMX accessories that came out in America during the Golden Age of BMX development (early to mid 70's). Most people would be hard pressed to argue that fact. As such, BMX mags are firmly ensconced in the history books as one of the first items that made the regular bicycle, "BMX ready". They have to be included alongside knobby tires, handlebars with a cross bar attached and MX style grips when it comes to the genesis of American BMX. Sure, heavy gauge spokes were being incorporated as a BMX upgrade to the regular bicycle wheel before mags appeared on the scene, but when mags first appeared, there was a huge quantum shift in most people's minds concerning BMX components. It seemed the spoked wheels would be doomed forever once mags appeared on the scene (in retrospect, that was obviously not the case). Back in the early/mid 70's, people looked at the BMX mag wheel as a huge innovation over the regular bicycle wheel in terms of it's superior strength and visual "coolness" (for lack of a better term) in the emerging new sport of BMX. BMX mags seemed to say, "Fuck the standard spoked bicycle wheel. This is a new era of off road bicycle use and BMX mags are what's happening now!!!" In the very early stages there were Motomags. The sheer brilliance of the Motomag and it's position as the first true mag wheel made for BMX use speaks for itself. Then we had Tuffs and Webco mags. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but from my research, the full production Motomag came out in '74, Tuffs in '75 and then Webco mags in '76. There were others, Cal-Pro Superstar magnesium mags made a brief appearance from '76 into '77 for instance. Afterwards in 1978 and onwards, there seemed to be a huge explosion of new BMX mags on the market. The list is quite extensive... By the mid 1980's for whatever reason, people seemed to be moving back towards the spoked wheel and from then on, it seems that spokes trumped the mag. Today, we hardly see mags at all on any professional BMX bikes... Sadly, today's production BMX mags seem to say, "WalMart or cheap/non-pro". So here we are today as collectors, looking back at what is the most sought after and valuable of the "1970's mags." IMO, I'd have to say, that when it comes to production mags (this excludes the uber-rare magnesium Motomags made exclusively for Rick's Bike Shop - less than a dozen sets), the Webco mags pretty much rule supreme. Why and by what criteria? Well, they are certainly the most expensive with almost no exceptions. Rarely does a decent set of Webco mags command less than $1000.00 these days. By contrast, a decent set of Motomag 1's (which are arguably more valuable to collectors than Motomag 11's) usually only fetch something in the $500.00 dollar range, give or take. Cal-Pro Superstar mags may command more, but in the last 5 years or so, I've only ever seen one or two sets being sold. To my knowledge, they may be on par with Webcos, but are for the most part, completely unavailable. An NOS set of Webco mags sold this year for around $2000.00 and that was the only NOS set I have ever heard of. Again by comparison, there seems to be many sets of NOS early Tuff mags for sale at around $300.00 these days... I guess average prices can be indicative of value. Secondly, they are rarely (if ever) cracked or structurally damaged, even when they have been abused for 35 years... In fact, I've only ever heard rumors about them being cracked. I'm sure it's happened, but I've never seen a cracked one, not even in pictures. Not to mention they are nice and lightweight compared to Motomags and most other mags of the same era. At around 2 pounds and 14 ounces each, Webco mags may be the lightest mags ever made, save and except for Tuffs. I don't know how much the original Tuffs weighed, but they claimed to be the lightest in their ads. Thirdly, they are Magnesium, albeit a magnesium alloy. Magnesium seems to invoke a certain reverence. A lot of people are actually somewhat afraid of magnesium, knowing full well that it can create a deadly, nearly unstoppable fire! How awesome! I only know of one other Magnesium BMX mag that was commercially produced - the Cal-Pro Superstars. Lastly, there is something about their design... They are completely bad ass. Webco mags just look fucking cool, period. When we look at the history of Webco mags, we can see a huge similarity and relationship to Iverson mags. The Iverson mags may in fact be the very first production mag wheels ever made for bicycles, which also made them very fucking cool! They too are very sought after by collectors, but in the "Muscle Bike" market. Muscle bikes were a very interesting part of bicycle history and they are related in many ways to the origins of BMX bicycles in America. They weren't meant to be used "off road", but they had a certain "custom racing" sort of connection... George Barris was a very hip dude when it came to the Muscle Bike craze and he certainly had a vision. His design somehow carries over into the Webco mag. Exactly how or why is another story... It would be nice to get to the bottom of that relationship one day. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipVanWinkle Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Good stuff. After somebody asked about UKAI dating the other day... I set off to build a list of every spoke and mag wheel made from the earliest mags I have to the newest. It's going to take me some time. Since I was done racing before the first mag was released, I wasn't paying close enough attention to appreciate it's impact on the sport. I guess I really didn't notice mag wheels until freestyle really exploded. I do agree that the Webco mags look the most bad ass or menacing of the lot. First Tuff was 1975? I was thinking later. I also know that the ACS Stoker mags in alloy with a coaster brake are the most common to find along with Lesters, and standard Tuff I & IIs. Still waiting to score some righteous mags. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larock Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 I think Webco Mags are bad ass! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Baron Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Interesting topic. I will let the 'collectors' discus the topic as pertaining to cost vs value and collectability and that angle. I will add my 2 cants worth from my racing era perspective. I think the Motomag is the coolest mag. I raced on them as long as I could before giving into the 'lighter is better' mentality. The only person I can remember racing on the Webco mags was Liz Torres. I just can't give much racing herritage to the Webcos, they just weren't used. As for the strongest, tuffest, most indistructable mag ever...that would have to go to the MX60. I never heard of one of those breaking and, trust me, I abused the snot out of mine. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mongoosedrummer Posted August 5, 2011 Author Share Posted August 5, 2011 What an awesome contribution Dennis! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markmc97225 Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 I totally dig the Webco's but, I'm stuck on the Motomag as my favorite. That webbing is cool and unique, and, what's extra cool is if the webbing breaks, tear it all out, and you've got a cool mag still. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spike Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Motomags are the coolest as far as I'm concerned. I rode the shit outta them until the inner shell started slipping in the rear which made it useless. NEVER liked the looks of Tuffs or any other mags. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roc Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 I believe Motomag did make a Magnesium wheel too, but those were a Factory issue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenC Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 I'm not sure of the details, but the Webco was built off the original Iverson molds, I've owned both and there is no sigifisant differences between the two, except the Iverson was cast out of aluminum and used a New Departure brake, I have also seen them with a Nantuck brake but it's the same thing as the New Departure. Those five round posts molded around the hubs on the Webco/Iverson mags were made for the 3spd Iverson mag, the 3spd hub was riveted in like the steel flanges on the Tuff II's 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenC Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 I believe Motomag did make a Magnesium wheel too, but those were a Factory issue? From my knowledge there were only like three sets of the Magnesium Motomags built. Here's a pic from my buddy Dave (Kratemeyhem) out in San Francisco. You can see how the Magnesium corrodes, there isn't much left to the webbing on the wheel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mongoosedrummer Posted August 5, 2011 Author Share Posted August 5, 2011 What I find strange is there is so little known about Webco in certain respects. Not only has the Iverson/Webco mag relation never been fully understood (at least to my knowledge), but the whole Webco serial number thing rivals the Da Vinci Code in it's mystery... As far as I can see there are some subtle differences between Iversons and Webco, notwithstanding the different composites used in each. Although the stark similarities are quite obvious, there are some differences and these differences had to reflect either different molds all together, or some type of modification to the original Iverson molds. Those molds cost big bucks too... In this respect, I'm leaning towards the idea that Webco bought the old Iverson molds and had them modified. In fact, the more I look into this, the more I am convinced this is certainly the case... I wonder where those Iverson/Webco molds are today? I know that Skip Hess destroyed all his Motomag molds. Skip also said the molds he used for production Motomags (not the wooden molds he used to sand cast the magnesium prototypes), cost somewhere around $60,000.00 each. Keep in mind, this kind of money would have been huge during the early 70's. I have no idea what the equivalent sum would be by today's standards... It would be fun to know. He had two molds for each production version of Motomags (front and back wheels). That would have been at least $120,000.00 per set. Motomag 1's had 3 versions, and Motomag 11's had one version. That's very close to a quarter million dollars in molds right there. Again, in "today's money" that would easily be over $1,000,000.00 Dang!!! Here's some pics showing some slight differences between the Iverson castings and Webco (obviously the Webco lettering could have been engraved within an existing Iverson mold - known as a "stand off" lettering in injection molding). The other difference I clearly see, are the five little nubs on the Iversons within the middle five lines of the "raised star pattern/outline", which has been pointed out here before in previous threads. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenC Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Those little nubs are just acorn nuts bolted to the wheel, you can take them off and there is just a small hole in the wheel. I compared them in person and the only real difference is the material they are made from, the Webco name molded in the wheel, and the type of coaster brake. Here are the Iversons I had, you can see the little holes where the acorn nuts were bolted. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mongoosedrummer Posted August 5, 2011 Author Share Posted August 5, 2011 Good call Ken... I have never seen a pair of Iversons with my own eyes like you have. I'm pretty sure someone pointed out the "Acorn Nuts" before, but I forgot what they were. "Nubs"! Ha! Damn, I'm so pedestrian sometimes... I WANT TO KNOW WHERE THE WEBCO/IVERSON MOLDS ARE RIGHT NOW!!! Seriously, who were the key players at Webco during that time period? Someone should get on this, so many questions... Man, those fuckers have some serious explaining to do!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mongoosedrummer Posted August 5, 2011 Author Share Posted August 5, 2011 I went back and found some awesome pictures and information that Krate-Mayhem had contributed to this same subject a few years back. Great guy and knowledgeable as hell! I haven't seen him in a long time... Be nice if he showed up again. He said this about the Iverson/Webco connection: "George Barris Designed those mag wheels for Stelber Industries for the iverson line of bikes. Webco made the mags in the 60's for them." So, according to that, Webco made the Iverson mags! That explains a lot! More from Krate-Mayhem: "Here are some pictures of George's bikes from 1969 with the mags he designed, Webcos and Enkies." *Looks like there was another mag in the mix back then too (Enkies?/Indies?)... Almost looks like a Tuff. I have no idea about the timeline of those either. No doubt this is getting to the very bottom of bicycle mag history... Love this kind of stuff! ** Seems that George Barris is still alive!!! I'd give my left nut to be able to talk with him and get some lowdown from the man himself. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Barris_(auto_customizer) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenC Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Dave is a great guy, and very knowledgeable, he also has more rare and one off items in his collection than anyone I know. I always seem to learn something new when I meet up with him at the shows. He has been hanging out on the Musclebike forums lately, http://musclebikeforums.com/ Dave also has about three sets of Iverson mags, including a set of the very rare 3spd versions. One other difference that I forgot to mention is the left side of the rear wheel was redone for the change over to Bendix brakes, the five small studs molded into the wheel were removed on the Webcos, probably because of the larger diameter of the Bendix brake verses the New Departure style brake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmxmountainbiker Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 I'm not qualified to say which were best, 'cause I am clearly biased: In retrospect, however, we were duped by early Motomag test riders who rode significantly lighter magnesium prototype wheels helping to market these amazingly heavy aluminum "racing" wheels. If Webco mags had come earlier, they might have gained some traction due to their lighter weight, but by then the sport was moving on to the more versatile, lighter, quicker, and therefore faster aluminum alloy spoked wheels. Mags tried to make a comeback in the 1990s with SPIN wheels, but they weren't easily repaired and were still heavy, so they died a quick marketing death once sponsorship deals ended. Richard Vogt bmxmountainbiker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nycet3 Posted March 24, 2016 Share Posted March 24, 2016 This thread deserves a bump Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinglehead Posted March 24, 2016 Share Posted March 24, 2016 (edited) Edited March 27, 2016 by shinglehead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Baron Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 I checked my files and I found some 'print' to go along with this thread. I will add these two with the prices at their release time. Thought you 'collectors' would appreciate that...NOT. LOL 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Baron Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 I figured this might as well go here also. I remember this add from back in the day but I never remember seeing these in person. Has anyone in the collecting world ever seen these? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 21, 2022 Share Posted December 21, 2022 On 8/5/2011 at 7:57 AM, mongoosedrummer said: What I find strange is there is so little known about Webco in certain respects. Not only has the Iverson/Webco mag relation never been fully understood (at least to my knowledge), but the whole Webco serial number thing rivals the Da Vinci Code in it's mystery... As far as I can see there are some subtle differences between Iversons and Webco, notwithstanding the different composites used in each. Although the stark similarities are quite obvious, there are some differences and these differences had to reflect either different molds all together, or some type of modification to the original Iverson molds. Those molds cost big bucks too... In this respect, I'm leaning towards the idea that Webco bought the old Iverson molds and had them modified. In fact, the more I look into this, the more I am convinced this is certainly the case... I wonder where those Iverson/Webco molds are today? I know that Skip Hess destroyed all his Motomag molds. Skip also said the molds he used for production Motomags (not the wooden molds he used to sand cast the magnesium prototypes), cost somewhere around $60,000.00 each. Keep in mind, this kind of money would have been huge during the early 70's. I have no idea what the equivalent sum would be by today's standards... It would be fun to know. He had two molds for each production version of Motomags (front and back wheels). That would have been at least $120,000.00 per set. Motomag 1's had 3 versions, and Motomag 11's had one version. That's very close to a quarter million dollars in molds right there. Again, in "today's money" that would easily be over $1,000,000.00 Dang!!! Here's some pics showing some slight differences between the Iverson castings and Webco (obviously the Webco lettering could have been engraved within an existing Iverson mold - known as a "stand off" lettering in injection molding). The other difference I clearly see, are the five little nubs on the Iversons within the middle five lines of the "raised star pattern/outline", which has been pointed out here before in previous threads. I have a Webco replica professional untouched never built from the late '70s found it in an attic it's white with a gold decals with the rectangular Chrome Forks again never built it's for sale.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 21, 2022 Share Posted December 21, 2022 I have a 20-in Webco replica professional BMX frame and forks with the rectangular Chrome Forks the frame and forks are untouched never built the dropouts are clean and pure found this bike in an Attic , with the gold anodized fluted seat pole , again this bike is untouched no axle has ever touched the rear drop out or the front forks and it's for sale $$$ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dav451 Posted December 23, 2022 Share Posted December 23, 2022 On 12/21/2022 at 8:34 AM, Robert said: I have a 20-in Webco replica professional BMX frame and forks with the rectangular Chrome Forks the frame and forks are untouched never built the dropouts are clean and pure found this bike in an Attic , with the gold anodized fluted seat pole , again this bike is untouched no axle has ever touched the rear drop out or the front forks and it's for sale $$$ Sounds really cool. Post up some pictures so we can check it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrodamus Posted December 23, 2022 Share Posted December 23, 2022 RE: What are the best vintage mags? Answer: Tuffs how can we have a thread about the best vintage mags and Skyway Tuff I and II are not mentioned? (IMHO) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dav451 Posted December 23, 2022 Share Posted December 23, 2022 LOL….TUFF WHEELS are mentioned in the first couple of posts. I see what you’re saying though. It’s nice reading about these other mags that don’t get mentioned as often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
